general-pm role + mgmt-aro topology decision (bs-mqolw0w7gcg/bs-mqom01jn5ww): keep general-pm THIN (cross-project convener + EVO-* umbrella owner + router/scribe + authoritative bwi writer); NO bulk .md; depth=pull-on-demand; tiny PM-owned routing map ~1-2k/app (kill-on-drift); pm-mars=fleet-pattern-lead w/ pluto per-app-divergence carve-out; api-image per-topic invite; single-app incidents stay in project aro. FORK resolved CONDITIONALLY on hub non-quorum capability: YES->one-aro non-quorum lurker / NO->two-aro fallback. GATES: (1) Elazar nod on routing-map + mars pattern-lead + lurker model; (2) pm-llmmsgsrv feasibility verdict on member-non-quorum (Q sent). Nothing structural moves until both clear.

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• wi-cli-venus created · 2026-06-22
• wi-cli-venus commented · 2026-06-22
  HUB CAPABILITY VERDICT (pm-llmmsgsrv, hub.mjs v2.14.43 read-only trace): lurker is NATIVE = roster.role='spectator' -> excluded from brainstorm turn-order/quorum + fan-out counts, still reads (shown 👁️). Caveat: role is GLOBAL per agent not per-aro -> but that FITS (general-pm is thin non-counted convener everywhere by design); per-aro override = small-medium build, only if general-pm must hold a counted turn in another aro. Cross-project pull-in works TODAY zero-build via opener explicit expected-list. Auto @-address/tag reinclusion = NOT native, deferred nice-to-have. Two-aro REJECTED (non-member can't read thread -> breaks watch-the-room). FORK RESOLVED: one aro + general-pm=spectator, zero build. GATE 2 (hub feasibility) CLEARED. Remaining gate: Elazar nod on (1) spectator model (2) routing map (3) mars pattern-lead. On nod: pm-llmmsgsrv sets role (their lane), PMs draft routing lines, general-pm owns routing-map file.
• wi-cli-venus commented · 2026-06-22
  VERDICT CORRECTED (pm-llmmsgsrv, deeper trace): 'native spectator zero-build' was WRONG. roster.role is DERIVED from agent-name prefix (text before first '-') and recomputed every poll -> NOT settable; spectator exclusion only attaches to an agent NAMED spectator-*. So general-pm CANNOT be made lurker via hub-state write (clobbered next poll), and it is NOT pm-llmmsgsrv hub-state lane -> it's a coder-llmmsgsrv CODE change. TWO ACCURATE PATHS: (a) ZERO-BUILD = opener-discipline (opener omits general-pm from expected-list on routine threads, includes on cross-project) - works today but fragile (one forgotten omit = burn returns); (b) SMALL BUILD (coder-llmmsgsrv) = persisted allowlist/per-agent-or-aro role override register won't clobber -> durable standing exclusion. general-pm LEAN: authorize small build for durable rule, opener-discipline as interim. Owner corrected: coder-llmmsgsrv-cc if build, NOT pm-llmmsgsrv. Two-aro still rejected (breaks read-the-room). Gate: Elazar nod on (1) lurker model+build-or-not (2) routing map (3) mars pattern-lead.
• wi-cli-venus commented · 2026-06-22
  BRAINSTORM bs-mqomuum16x0 CLOSED (kind=decision, 4/4 PMs + Elazar lean). SUPERSEDES bs-mqolw0w7gcg on TOPOLOGY. Elazar reframe: fan-out DELIVERY is the burn, not brainstorm turns -> lurker/spectator never solved it. DECISION: TWO AROS (reject no-fan-out role b; b = correctness hazard per pluto = senders falsely assume fleet decision/incident reached a fan-out-exempt member = silent non-delivery, worst failure for coordination layer; also needs code+new protocol). ROOMS: aro:evolutiva-management STAYS daily PM-only (mars/pluto/venus, fan-out ON, general-pm NOT member); NEW aro:evolutiva-fleet = general-pm + 3 PMs + per-topic api-image, cross-cutting only. RISE-RULE: single-app work+single-app incidents stay in project aro; cross-project/fleet-pattern/standards/umbrella-EVO/multi-app incidents rise to fleet aro. Elazar room-choice = routing switch (no new protocol). MD: NEW thin baseline shared/md/evolutiva-pm-fleet-baseline.md ~1-2k (DISTINCT from full evolutiva-pm-commons.md 5.2k, do not overwrite), all 4 load; THREE net-new general-pm<->PM POINTER files = path+when-to-read+3-5 constraints, kill-on-drift, never copied content. CONTEXT-HYGIENE: general-pm loads all 3 thin pointers; each PM loads ONLY its own; never 3x3. POINTER TARGETS: mars = mars/shared/md/mars-commons.md + mars/pm/00-master-plan.md + mars/pm/01-product.md (WHEN: fleet pattern touching mars live-prod divergence/only-app-with-real-users, mars-divergent domain rules JTP/ayudante/no-admin-operator, general-pm convening a mars-ORIGINATED pattern, multi-app incident incl mars). pluto = pluto/shared/md/pluto-commons.md + pluto/pm/PLAN.md + pluto/pm/index.md (WHEN: fleet decision touching pluto divergence anestesia-4opt/pair-grading PLUTO-77/141, or multi-app incident incl pluto). venus = venus/shared/md/venus-commons.md + venus/pm/00-master-plan.md + venus/pm/index.md (WHEN: fleet decision touching venus divergence no-revision/sede-rotation/multi-alumno/scoring-dedup, multi-app incident incl venus, or venus go-live). OWNERSHIP: pm-venus = placement/sync of baseline+3 pointers; each PM authors own pair file+baseline line+holds live-state; general-pm curates baseline+when-to-read triggers+index+EVO umbrella WI. EXECUTION GATES (both required, nothing built yet): (1) Elazar GO; (2) pm-llmmsgsrv config-confirm (two-aro=pure config: create aro+memberships+fan-out allowlist, no code) + overlap-membership/PM-leave-succession gotcha cleared (pm-llmmsgsrv verifying now). NON-BLOCKING: hub brainstorm turn-gate = one-turn-per-agent, fights Elazar raise-hand-multi-turn instruction -> candidate future opener-enabled toggle (flagged to pm-llmmsgsrv). Non-topology items from bs-mqolw0w7gcg STILL STAND: thin general-pm, no bulk md, pull-on-demand, mars pattern-lead w/ pluto carve-out, api-image per-topic.
• wi-cli-venus commented · 2026-06-22
  EXECUTION FEASIBILITY VERIFIED (pm-llmmsgsrv, hub.mjs v2.14.43). (1) RAISE-HAND IS NATIVE not a gap: kind=raise_hand/lower_hand primitives exist; 2nd turn un-coached when round-1 complete AND hand raised via primitive (line 2235 isSecondTurn=isDuplicate&&allReplied&&raisedSet.has(sender)). We got coached for saying it in PROSE + re-speaking pre-round-1-complete. NOT native = free-for-all mid-round-1 interjection (would be small toggle). Correction to my earlier 'mismatch' flag. (2) TWO-ARO=PURE CONFIG confirmed: aro created implicitly on first aro_join (INSERT OR IGNORE line 901), memberships=self-service joins, PM via /setpm. CAVEAT: fan-out allowlist POST /aro_allow is ELAZAR-ONLY (403 others) -> enabling fan-out on aro:evolutiva-fleet is an Elazar action, not executable by general-pm or pm-llmmsgsrv. (3) GOTCHA: if general-pm holds PM seat of aro:evolutiva-management, aro_leave AUTO-ELECTS successor (host-tier+recency, line 2571, notify on) -> must /setpm successor deliberately BEFORE leaving; recommend pm-venus-cc. Overlapping membership otherwise fine. EXECUTION SEQUENCE on Elazar GO: (a) /setpm pm-venus-cc on evolutiva-management; (b) general-pm aro_leave evolutiva-management; (c) all 4 + per-topic api-image aro_join evolutiva-fleet; (d) Elazar runs /aro_allow fan-out on fleet aro; (e) md artifacts authored/placed. STILL GATED on Elazar GO - nothing executed.
• wi-cli-venus commented · 2026-06-22
  EXECUTION STARTED (Elazar GO, direct DM 00:21 'general-pm aro_leave aro:evolutiva-management'). Verified general-pm WAS PM of evolutiva-management -> ran /setpm aro:evolutiva-management pm-venus-cc (applied, confirmed) BEFORE leaving so auto-succession (host-tier+recency) did not pick an arbitrary seat. Then aro_leave -> hub confirms PM=pm-venus-cc, general-pm no longer member. PERSISTENCE FLAG raised to pm-llmmsgsrv (their lane): SessionStart bootstrap re-joins AROs on respawn -> bootstrap join-list must DROP evolutiva-management (+ later ADD evolutiva-fleet) or the leave reverts on next compact. REMAINING on Elazar word: (c) members aro_join aro:evolutiva-fleet; (d) Elazar-only /aro_allow fan-out on fleet aro; (e) md artifacts (venus places baseline+3 pointers, each PM authors own pair+baseline line, general-pm curates+when-to-read+index).
• wi-cli-venus commented · 2026-06-22
  STEP (c) done: general-pm aro_join aro:evolutiva-fleet (per Elazar GO relayed by pm-venus, who holds fleet PM seat as first joiner). Hub confirms general-pm in fleet aro, PM=pm-venus-cc. Fan-out OFF until Elazar runs /aro_allow (step d, Elazar-only). Topology now: general-pm OUT of evolutiva-management (PM->pm-venus), IN evolutiva-fleet. Pending: mars+pluto(+api-image per-topic) join fleet; Elazar /aro_allow; md artifacts (step e); bootstrap join-list persistence fix (pm-llmmsgsrv checking owner).
• wi-cli-venus commented · 2026-06-22
  DURABILITY/PERSISTENCE RESOLVED (general-pm lane). Traced resolve-aros.sh + bootstrap: (1) general-pm had NO .aro on walk-up path -> resolve_aros EMPTY -> leave already durable (nothing rejoins). (2) bootstrap llmmsg-bootstrap-session.sh is ADDITIVE-ONLY (join_aro only, never aro_leave) -> hub-side membership persists across respawn, cannot revert a leave nor drop fleet membership. (3) per-project .aro (mars/pluto/venus agents) list only 'evolutiva-management: pm' - never listed generalpm, no edit needed there. ACTION: created websites/evolutiva-pensanta-com/.aro (general-pm-only, PMs hit deeper .aro first) with single line 'evolutiva-fleet: generalpm' + header. VERIFIED resolve_aros now returns evolutiva-fleet (NOT evolutiva-management) for generalpm; pm-venus still resolves venus+evolutiva-management unaffected. Self-heals fleet membership on respawn; omitting management guarantees leave never reverts. FOLLOW-UP (PM lane, optional hardening): project .aro files don't list evolutiva-fleet -> PMs' fleet membership rests on hub persistence only; each PM may add 'evolutiva-fleet: pm' to its own .aro for self-healing.
• wi-cli-venus commented · 2026-06-22
  EXECUTION CONTINUES: Elazar set generalpm-evolutiva-cc as PM of aro:evolutiva-fleet (not pm-venus) + GO on md artifacts ('do all you have to do, PM tell agents'). Fan-out VERIFIED LIVE on fleet aro (Elazar ran /aro_allow; dispatch reached 4/4). As fleet PM I dispatched the md work order: each PM authors its general-pm<->PM pointer file (paths+when-to-read+3-5 constraints, kill-on-drift) + its line in NEW thin baseline shared/md/evolutiva-pm-fleet-baseline.md (distinct from full evolutiva-pm-commons.md); pm-venus owns placement/sync of baseline+3 pointers; general-pm curates baseline skeleton+harmonized when-to-read index + wires baseline+3 pointers into general-pm context-load. Posted baseline SKELETON to room. CONTEXT-HYGIENE enforced (general-pm loads 3 pointers+baseline; each PM only its own). Raised optional PM .aro hardening (evolutiva-fleet: pm per project). pm-venus authoring venus pieces. Memory generalpm-role-and-aros.md updated: I am PM of evolutiva-fleet, pm-venus PM of evolutiva-management. PENDING: PMs return pair-file paths+baseline lines -> general-pm finalizes baseline + wires context-load.
• wi-cli-venus commented · 2026-06-22
  md-artifact placement progressing (Option B = /gdrive/projects/evolutiva/fleet-pointers/, decided: cross-host mounted, no WI#590 shared/md-delivery dependency, gdrive=durable backup store, dirs pre-existed). VERIFIED on venus mount: generalpm-pluto.md (final), generalpm-venus.md (final), evolutiva-pm-fleet-baseline.md (venus-authored draft, good). PENDING: generalpm-mars.md not yet synced to venus mount (rclone cross-host lag from mars host) + pm-mars userbase-wording confirm for baseline mars line. Backup CONFIRMED by nw-venus: all 4 .aro files captured by daily venus-state backup (find -name .aro across Documents -> gdrive, 14d retention); /gdrive md files need no extra backup (gdrive=durable). FLAGGED to Elazar: whey USB backup leg broken (dead ZT IP, OPS-pending) = gdrive is sole live destination, no USB redundancy. PMs added evolutiva-fleet: pm to their agents/.aro (mars/pluto/venus) for respawn self-heal. NEXT: on mars sync -> finalize baseline -> pm-venus overwrites -> general-pm wires standing context-load to baseline + JIT pair files (no project-root CLAUDE.md exists; wiring via general-pm memory pointer).
• wi-cli-venus commented · 2026-06-22
  md-artifact work COMPLETE + WIRED. 4 files placed+verified on /gdrive/projects/evolutiva/fleet-pointers/: generalpm-{mars,pluto,venus}.md (PM-authored pointer files) + evolutiva-pm-fleet-baseline.md (general-pm authored final canonical version). general-pm context-load WIRED via generalpm-role-and-aros.md memory (session-loaded; no project-root CLAUDE.md): baseline=standing-load each fleet turn, pair files=JIT. ADJUDICATED userbase conflict: pm-mars 'only app with real live users' refuted by pm-pluto's Pluto clinical go-live 2026-06-09 -> adopted live-audience GRADIENT (mars=largest/longest-running, pluto=live since 2026-06-09, venus=pre-go-live) so live-data reversibility caution applies to mars AND pluto. Residual (pm-mars lane): generalpm-mars.md line3 'ONLY app with real live users' still stale, flagged for kill-on-drift patch (non-blocking). Two-aro+thin-md architecture (bs-mqomuum16x0) LIVE. Pending Elazar: OPS WI for broken whey USB backup leg?
• wi-cli-venus commented · 2026-06-22
  RESIDUAL CLOSED + FULLY VERIFIED. pm-mars self-patched generalpm-mars.md to gradient (converged independently with general-pm decision): line reads 'LARGEST/LONGEST-RUNNING live student audience (Pluto also live since 2026-06-09; venus pre-go-live). Live-data reversibility caution applies to BOTH mars and pluto.' All 4 fleet-pointer files on /gdrive verified coherent with baseline gradient. Architecture (two-aro + thin baseline standing-load + JIT pair files, bs-mqomuum16x0) LIVE and consistent. Only OPEN item: Elazar's call on opening an OPS WI for the broken whey USB backup leg (gdrive currently sole live backup destination).